Ep 36: Breaking the (unwritten) rules of copywriting to sound more like yourself
Have you ever looked started writing your website, looked for a few examples and thought… “hmm that doesn’t sound like me.” There’s a pretty specific example of copywriting in this space and Krista Walsh and I want to talk about its implications. Primarily, how can you show up confidently as yourself if you feel as if you have to adopt someone else’s voice to be seen/heard? Stay tuned for the 6 things you can choose to do differently (if it feels better for you)!
Krista’s Bio
Krista Walsh is a website copywriter and strategist for client-based businesses, which means that she writes your website so that you not only attract more clients but also the right clients, the kind who are confident they want to work with you — and won’t settle for anyone else. As a result, your website goes from “existing” to a lead-generating machine working for you around the clock. And you can get back to focusing on your craft, business, and impact! Krista’s clients have gone on to book 4-figure services straight from their website without sales calls and rank in the top 5 of Google search results for competitive search terms. Outside of her work as a copywriter, Krista enjoys watching TV shows about suburban moms who get in over their heads and end up living lives of crime.
Connect with Krista
Episode Transcript
Becca 0:05
Welcome to Probably Bothered the podcast that cuts through online business man's so that you can redefine your version of success. Because I believe if you aren't a little bit bothered, you probably aren't paying attention how many times have you gone to write your website and email a social media post any sort of copywriting for your business? And you just kind of thought the examples that I'm seeing don't really feel right. Well, today that is what we are covering with Krista Walsh.
She's a website copywriter and a strategist and she focuses on getting the right clients to your business through words, and we take on a lot of things. But my favorite part of this conversation is about alternative ways to write copy. And Krista is so nice to share six things that she does differently than the copywriting that we see on a daily basis. So stay tuned for those. We'll break it all down in today's episode, I'm going to try my best to keep my energy level low throughout this conversation even though I am very excited.
So if you guys don't hear my peppy self, it is only because we are talking to Krista Walsh and she is an incredible copywriter that really focuses on bringing to light the different types of personalities. AKA What do you do in copywriting? If you aren't super peppy? Now you understand the energy level comment. So anyway, Krista, welcome to probably bothered. I'm so excited to chat with you today.
Krista Walsh 1:56
Thank you, Becca, I'm excited. Also don't feel like you have to downplay your happy personality. There is room for all different types of people in the world.
Becca 2:07
Very, very true. I feel like we're gonna dive into that. But that really is the perfect segue to the first thing that I want to talk to you about, which is how do you show up and this is a conversation I feel like I know your listener Probably Bothered. And we talk a lot about the loudest voices in the room. And sometimes the loudest voices can make you feel as if your experience is the other because they're so loud.
So I'd love to hear a little bit about how you work with clients and yourself to bring to light voices that are kind of different in some ways or have different energy behind them than the ones that are screaming the loudest. Yeah,
Krista Walsh 2:51
great questions. So I think in the copywriting world, certainly, if you are a copywriter but also if you're a business owner who has like been around the block a couple of times like you've probably experienced the copywriting world in some way like kind of like internet famous copywriters or marketers who are just super well known. There tends to be this huge emphasis on your brand voice. And usually, when people talk about brand voice they really are talking about this sort of specific genre of brand voice which is this like very it's either like Pepe or it's like Super Bowls and like people use like all caps or they'll use like they'll like curse a lot you know like that well placed like fuck in there, you know just to show people that they're edgy and real. I do know I do.
Right? Yeah. Or like, it will also be like super jokey. Like they'll say something and then they'll have like a little like parenthetical or like when they're introducing themselves, you know, it'd be like if I was like, Hi, I'm Krista. I'm a total word nerd. I love to like go hiking. I also love having a wine and like to go cup on the beach and just like all these like sort of fun facts. Like Sheridan, a very tongue-in-cheek way. So I hope like in this description, you kind of get the idea of the type of copywriting that I think we've all seen around.
And this annoys me for a couple of different reasons. I think the first one is it to me, it implies that copywriting is all about the voice like the way that your words sound, it's all about like making sure that people think you're likable through the way that you write. Which, in my opinion, that stuff is kind of like dressing on top of the reality of what copywriting is, which is really more about the messages like the content of what you're actually saying, not necessarily the way that you say it.
And two, it bothers me because as somebody who's more of an introvert more than that I'm kind of like a reserved person. I don't, I'm not super peppy, or exuberant in real life, and I don't see myself in these voices. And I'm like, I don't really want to write like this because this isn't me, also, so personality-wise, it doesn't fit.
And then for people who run a business that is, let's say, like, you have more of like a professional service, like if you're a lawyer, or an accountant, or anything that's more b2b. Those kinds of voices aren't always a lot like not allowed. That's the wrong word. But like, they're not always super appropriate, right? So you can sort of start looking around at like, how do I do copywriting and get the impression that to do copywriting? Well, you have to like mimic these super boisterous voices.
Becca 5:48
Yeah. So I feel like, there's some sort of parallel here between how we have recently started talking about branding. And whereas a few years ago, and graphic designers will probably, like, hate me when I say this, but I'm going to be very general here. A few years ago, branding was very much the images on the page, the colors, the fonts, etc. And it has evolved, right, we've been hearing all of these things about personal branding, and your brand, look and feel is just the start of what branding is.
And I feel like there's, there's room in this copywriting discussion to understand that, that there are different elements to it, I'm trying to connect this in my brain, so that out loud too, so that you guys can follow along. But there are different elements to it, right? Like, there is the copywriting as a function, which kind of is what needs to be put across the screen, so that people understand who you are, how you help them, and what is included in your offer.
And then there's also this like, choice of how you want to be represented on the screen. And when you feel as if that peppy type of copywriting is the only option it can feel, what's the word, and authentic, if that isn't how you identify yourself off of this screen as well.
And there's a really important connection to the customer experience, right? If you write like that, or your website is written like that, and then you get on the phone with someone and you're very much more obviously, I'm trying to, there's only so much I can show on a microphone. So that was my impression. On a microphone. I don't know if that made sense. But, if the experience is different from the screen to the person, then you're not showing up as authentic, you probably won't feel as confident, but also people are going to be a little confused when they meet you in real life, too.
Krista Walsh 7:55
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, you're also risking, you're essentially hiding who you truly are, because you're coming at it from a place of like, I'm not good enough to just like, be my, like, honest, you know, more straight to the point more direct more, you know, quote, unquote, like quiet self, you're going to alienate the people who actually do resonate with that, right.
Versus the people, you know, yeah, like you said, if somebody's coming in looking for somebody who's like super bold and peppy, and has a lot of energy, and they get that from your sales page, or your website, or social content, or whatever, and then they meet you in real life, and you're not that they're going to be disappointed, which is a horrible feeling for you to see that.
Becca 8:40
Absolutely. So, in terms of copywriting, I'm curious, do you have any examples of it? Whether it's a website or social media? How? How are you able to describe to people because this is kind of, I'm gonna say, quote, unquote, alternative copywriting in this space. It's different from the mainstream of what we see.
So I'd love to know if have examples if you have any off the top of your head, if you don't, it's okay. We don't do pop quizzes here. I guess. Is it more that you focus on the meat of what people need to know? And that sort of thing? Or how do you kind of stylistically consciously make the distinction between how you would write for a client versus that kind of peppy voice?
Krista Walsh 9:28
Yeah, absolutely. So I've done a lot of thinking about this. And I think I have like six things actually, that I realized that I did sort of looking at my own work for clients who resonate with this type of personality. So we can go through them if you want.
Becca 9:44
Awesome. We're getting the top secret information here.
Krista Walsh 9:50
Sorry, I lost my doc. Okay, there it is. Okay, so yeah, so the first one, these are not in any particular order. These are not any order of importance, but the first one would be you permission to use hesitant language. So I think one of the rules Rules, quote, unquote, that people talk about in copywriting is that you have to be bold, you have to always just like, you know, say the biggest possible promise that you can promise people, you never use words like maybe or sometimes or it could be or possibly, there's this unwritten rule, actually, sometimes it is written, that you can't use those words. And I think for a lot of more introverted, folks, for people who aren't like high energy, you probably use these words a lot in real life, like when you're talking to people, and it's okay to use them in your copy I am, I think, conveying that you don't have all of the answers and that you're not going to save somebody. It can actually help people trust you more, because you're showing like you're saying, like, this is what I do know, this is what I don't know, especially in stuff when you're trying to like talk about people's pain points, too. It can be disarming if you say, like, you might be feeling this way. Instead of saying, like, Girl, I know what's going on for you right now. You're in a terrible headspace like that feels like when I read that, that feels really aggressive. Like they're telling me how I feel. And a really easy shift would just be to like, you know, maybe you're feeling like this right now, maybe not, maybe you're feeling like this or like this. If you are it's okay, whatever, you know, I love that. So just permission to use hesitant language, if that feels right to you.
The second thing is to say what you mean. So if you're feeling the pressure to use, like stories to make yourself seem relatable, or to make a lot of jokey asides or to use emojis or to like sound clever, and your copywriting permission to just not and to opt instead to say what you mean. So this kind of goes back to what you were saying, like focusing on the meat of your content. So if you get really dialed in what your messages are, those should be strong enough to stand on their own. So if you just tell people like, you have this problem, here's how I solve it. That is often enough to get people interested to work with you, or to at least go on that next step like getting on a call or reaching out with you. Even if they don't like to perceive all of the nuances of your personality from your sales page.
The third thing would be focus on the voice-of-customer versus your brand voice. So this is a swap. Like if you let's say like you imagine a camera instead of like pointing the camera at yourself, you're sort of flipping it around and pointing it at your audience and reflecting back to them, what they're experiencing in the language that they use. So if you're someone who feels like you know, I don't really have a strong personality, or you're in a field where you don't feel like it's appropriate to like have like a super high energy exuberant, jokey, non-serious personality. A good way to still make people feel really warm and to make your copy feel really human is to do some voice of customer research. So usually, this is like doing client interviews or even like a survey, and paying attention to how people describe their own problems and their own desires versus just focusing so much on yourself.
Becca 13:26
Yeah, if I can interrupt your flow for one second, I just want to issue a little reminder to our listeners. I have talked with so many not so many copywriters, a few copywriters but also over the course of my business and different things like that. And I've never spoken to a copywriter who did not bring up voice of customer research. So if you all haven't had the chance to do that yet, I know we're all so busy as business owners, and I'm not going to tell you you have to. But I am going to tell you that every single professional copywriter who does this for a living brings up voice of customer research. So it's your reminder and putting it out there. If you haven't done it yet, you might want to consider it.
Krista Walsh 14:12
Okay, yeah, it feels really intimidating to do it. Like even when I reach out to my clients to be like, Hey, can you do an interview? You know, it feels like kind of embarrassing or like, like, maybe you're asking too much from your clients. So I always like to remind people that, you know, when you're being asked, it doesn't actually feel like that much because all they're asking for is a 30-Minute like phone call where you don't have to prep you're just like showing up in talking about yourself and that's pretty easy. Like when I do all I do client interviews for all of my website copywriting projects, a large portion of the people I interview will like do these as they're in the car, like on the way home from work. Like it doesn't have to be formal. They don't have to prep. So it's not as big of an ask as you might think. Yeah,
Becca 15:00
That's a good reminder.
Krista Walsh 15:02
So if we're going through this list of how to write copy without having to mimic the super exuberant, high-energy style of copy number four would be to share your story and get personal so I think there is this push in the copywriting world for like stories and especially in email copywriting, I see this a lot, like, every email has to be a story. But usually, when I see people using stories, it's this very surface level, almost like stand-up comedy type of story where it's like, here's this inconsequential thing where I like lost a shoe. And then I found it and then I'm going to pivot into like, how this relates to coaching in some way or like whatever your services and that's not the type of story that I'm talking about. I'm talking about like a real personal story, like what something that's made a big difference in your life that you can talk about, that will help people see a different side of you, that isn't, isn't all about your business. And you can share this with like the same like regular voice, you don't have to feel the need to make it funny, or anything. One of the things I talk about sometimes is how going to therapy and doing self-work on myself has really improved my ability as a business owner and the CEO of my company, so something like that, like just not being afraid to get vulnerable. And just sharing that directly can be really powerful for helping people relate to you. One of my other clients is a therapist and on her about page we talk about her upbringing, as in like any fundamentalist religious cults, and we don't talk about it as though it's funny or like, you know, like a quote, unquote, like the relatable story, it's just what happened to her and we like, bring it up very seriously. But it helps her because clients you see that who have a similar upbringing or like, okay, she gets it, right. And it's something that's memorable.
So number five would be to stand for something. So, you know, if you're somebody who hangs back a little bit, like, if you're that quieter type of person, you probably notice things that other people don't. So if something makes you mad, or sad, or is just like confusing, or like, why is it done like this? I think, Becca, you're a really good example of this. You can create content, or maybe like, build your entire message around that thing, or those things. So that's another thing that helps people like grab onto something. And remember you buy that's not like a funny brand voice.
Becca 17:40
Yeah. So I'm gonna jump in since you brought me up on that. But I just also wanted to say, and I did a podcast episode, a solo episode about this about confidently showing up and sharing your real thoughts, your uncensored thoughts, and kind of the way that I approach it so that I feel comfortable doing it. Because I don't want it to ever come across as if this is easy for me. And it's I granted at this point easier than the first time I published an episode and Probably Bothered.
But I think that it's just a good reminder that we all start somewhere and where I started if you want to story, where I started was a group coaching call with probably four or five other entrepreneurs, where I straight ranted for I would probably say 20 minutes about how mad I was at this industry, and what my experience had been like this far. And how I wasn't even sure at that point, I was side hustling that I even wanted to take my business full time. And then I did one of those I didn't know them that well hadn't been in the group that long sat back, and I felt like probably an hour had passed. But it was probably really two seconds. And somebody goes, I know exactly what you mean. And then everybody chimed in, like, yes, I've been thinking that I've been seeing that nobody's talking about that.
And that was kind of the motive behind the podcast. And it gave me the confidence to realize like, if I have these thoughts, other people have these thoughts, and saying them was so much more important than my fear. So that's how I came to, to Probably Bothered. And I feel like becoming known for speaking my mind. But it wasn't easy. It wasn't overnight. And I think I do have a pretty boisterous personality. But it doesn't mean that just because I naturally speak up, it doesn't mean that it's easy across the board. So it's, I think one of those things when you realize how important it is to the bigger picture. Yeah, that outweighs how difficult it can feel.
Krista Walsh 19:52
Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know when I think of like people that I follow on social media and sign up for their email list And we'll do that thing where you binge every podcast that they've guested on, right or like all of their podcasts episodes.
It's usually people who are doing something like this. They're there. They're like putting their, like drawing a line in the sand and saying, like, this is how things are. And this is how I want to do them. So from personal experience, this is something that like I relate to a lot as a consumer of content as someone who hires other people.
Becca 20:26
Yeah. And when I started this, that group was it was aired may Henry's height crew. And so we did a lot of looking at other people. And the thing that I kept coming across was the people that I resonated with, or what I labeled at that time truth-tellers.
And I was like, I just want to be a truth-teller. And six months later, here we are. So it's possible when you start seeing those threads and other people have what you resonate with. It's possible and I'm not saying to become anyone, I obviously did this in my own way and do it differently than the people that I was looking at at the time. But yeah, the change is there if you want it, not that you have to change either.
Krista Walsh 21:12
Yeah, I also like that you're saying I relate to a lot of the things even though I am naturally boisterous, like probably more extroverted. That's also fine. Like, none of these things are relegated to just a certain personality type. These are just like all alternatives to, you know, focusing on like a specific type of brand voice or trying to like showcase your whole personality and the way that you write.
Becca 21:35
Yeah, one of the things and I'm curious about this, before we get into number six, one of the things that a friend of mine said to me after I had started this path down everything that bothers me. She said, I know what you’re against, but what are you for?
That is the thing that that question just flipped the script in my mind about how I approached the podcast about how I started speaking up about things because I realized that I was saying so much what I didn't like, but I also wasn't taking ownership and saying, If I don't like things this way, what way do I want them to be? And what opportunity for conversation needs to happen so that that change can be made? And the result really is the way that this podcast looks now.
Krista Walsh 22:27
Yeah, that's really cool. I think. I think a lot of us probably start the way you did with like, starting with, I don't like this, how can we, you know, like, let's just talk about how much I don't like it. And then eventually, you start figuring out a way to like, do the opposite.
Like, even now, as I'm talking about this stuff, it definitely started as me looking around and being like, I don't want to write like this because this isn't me. You know, like, why is everybody insisting that I write like this? And so these, like, six points that I'm talking about are my way of being like, how, what's a different way of writing? What is the positive side of the coin?
Becca 23:06
Yeah. Okay, let's go on to number six.
Krista Walsh 23:08
Okay, number six, is to go for substance and clarity versus style. So for let me just share an example, I think to illustrate this. So one of my clients is a designer, she's an ethical designer, sorry, like an ethical eco-conscious designer. And one of the things we struggled with is how we talk about that without just doing these like stylistic surface level, things were talking like using buzzwords like sustainable and eco-conscious.
And so on her website, we actually like pretty quickly, like, I think, on our homepage, like created a section that was like, What is this? Like? What does this actually mean? And very plainly, no fluff just explained what it actually meant, like what is like, she's looking she's like, considering colors that don't like, you know, have a big drain on your energy when you download them on your computer. Just like the basic like actual What is she doing that makes her different from a non-eco-conscious designer. You know, instead of trying to differentiate her with the voice or a style, or just using all of these buzzwords, we actually just like, really plainly broke it down. And I think that's a good example of prioritizing substance and clarity over feeling like you have to have like a style of writing per se.
Becca 24:32
Yeah. And when you have to break down to that level of clarity, because you need to write something on your website. And also it helps in so many other ways. And I don't want to go too deep into it because we've had the conversation on this podcast multiple times about confidence coming from clarity. Actually, by the time this goes live, those other episodes might be live, but I recorded like two months in advance. So they might not be live yet.
But confidence comes from clarity. And I think that that's one of the things that whether you're showing up on your website, whether you're showing up on social media or on a call with a potential or core current client, if I could speak it, having that level of clarity will set you apart in every single interaction that you have with someone. So doing the work up front, where it matters on your website is so wildly important. And that's the thing that I wish I knew from the beginning. Because I feel like the first version of my own website was fluffy. Like the copy on it was fluffy. And I loved it at the time. And it was fun, but it was the only example that I had.
And now, I seriously just wrote a sales page that was two sections long, because it had all the information that you needed. And three years ago, it would have been like a full long-form sales page. So it can affect how people interactions with you, how they interact with your website, but also the information that they need to have with there are so many ways that that clarity just floats throughout all of
Krista Walsh 26:18
those levels. Yeah, I love that. And me to my first website, I remember agonizing over whether I want it I think my original headline was, in retrospect, I think terrible, but it was something like words that inspire a feeling or something like that.
Becca 26:39
And I went in there.
Krista Walsh 26:43
And I was like, do I want to say ignite or inspire and I was like, you know, like agonizing over this and like because that like I was a new copywriter right at that point. But I think like any business owner who first when they start like learning about copywriting, you sort of think that's what it is. It is like being really picky about like individual words. And then it's really going to matter whether I say ignite or inspire because it's gonna like completely change everything.
And a lot of that, I think, is because of the way copywriters talk about copywriting. Like giving away like, here's my like List of 20 subject lines that work or like here are these phrases like power phrase, word bank, and like stuff like this, where the suggestion is that copywriting is about like, knowing the specific words and the specific style of way to say like things that somehow like makes people want to buy your stuff. And that's not true.
I mean, I think it's so much more about, you know, the content of what you're saying, like you got an entire what could have been an entire sales page of fluffy stuff down into two paragraphs, because you were just like, let me just say, like, what actually people actually need to know. And if that's not enough to get people to buy, like saying, like, what you offer, who it's for, what are the benefits, you know, and maybe you throw in some like, let me make let me help you make sure that I understand where you're coming from, like you do talk to their headspace a little bit. But if you do all that, and it's not enough for people to buy, the solution is not going to be to like download a brand voice word bank, or like, take a brand voice quiz because people aren't not buying from you because they don't like your personality really, like they're not buying from you because they don't want what you offer.
And sometimes it's you have to change what you're offering into something people want. Or you have to go to the foundations of your messaging like maybe the way that you're talking about your solution is you're not actually hitting on why people buy it. And that's why like interviewing your past clients can be so helpful, because they can tell you I worked with you because of this reason, and you're like, oh shit, like, I didn't realize it was because of that, you know, I thought it was this whole other thing. So yeah,
Becca 29:08
No, absolutely. What I'm hearing when you're saying all of this is go back to basics, almost. And I feel like there is such a push for that in this industry overall. Because everyone, this is my own personal observation. And if you guys disagree with me, that's fine, but I'm gonna say it anyway.
Everybody in this space wants to put their own spin on things. And a lot of times you see it in copywriting with fluffy language you see it in marketing with you need to do these three steps in order to get your message across or, and I'm not saying that it's bad to have a signature process or something that you take your clients through.
Like you have to have some sort of framework for consistency and your offer as a business owner. I recognize that but a lot of times in describing that thing, and wanting to set ourselves apart, we add complexity. And then complexity is taught to another person who builds on that complexity to set themselves apart, and so on, and so on and so on. So there's really this reaction where once you get four people down there all these things that you're supposed to do and know and try and etc. And why can't we just go back to basics sometimes?
Krista Walsh 30:31
Yeah, yeah, completely. I'm curious, do you have an example of that, like, I guess, in your industry in coaching?
Becca 30:38
Who, I think with coaching, I guess it's really just that I don't have a specific example because I don't want to call anyone out. But yeah, I've seen a lot of, of my method for going through sales. You know, this is one, this is one that I don't like. I don't like sales calls. And I feel like sometimes you need them for certain industries, like for my the web design side of my business, I could never not have a sales call, there's too much information that I need to make sure that I can accurately understand what your needs are for your website and what you're going for. And all of those things, some industries, they're needed.
But in, in coaching, this is a level of complexity, right? People started having these coaching these sales calls, to obviously try to sell people but like, are they needed? Or is it a level of complexity? I know so many coaches at this point that sell in their DMS and not unlike the salesy in your DMS way, but in the like, here's my offer, do you have questions about it? I'd love to chat with you. If you do, like, let me answer them real quick, right now with a voice note. And if I'm the right person for you, great. And if I'm not, that's okay, too, like Best of luck to you love to stay in touch.
So they're just things that whether it's a specific action or a mindset, or go through steps, one, two, and three that really aren't needed steps, like, let's just simplify our business and our time and our client’s time.
Krista Walsh 32:15
Yeah. And that does require taking a step back and thinking like, do I need this thing that everyone is doing? Or? I don't know, because I don't know about you. But I have had the experience of many a time where I've done things because I thought I had to try to think of a good example. But maybe this is a good example, like when I was thinking about launching a coaching program, which I ultimately did not go through with because it didn't feel right.
But when I was launching it, you know, I was told that I had to, like have all of these complex pricing structures, like I had to have an early bird price for like two weeks. And then I had to do like a webinar where everyone who came to the webinar got extra bonuses and the early bird price. And then after that, it was a different price.
And I remember being really confused. Like I was like, I can't even keep track of like these different like pricing offers you're supposed to have. But I was like told by many people that that is the way you launch something. And so I think, you know if I were to ever launch a coaching thing again, which I'm not sure that's ever in my future, but if I were I think I would take like a hard look at like, you know, what's a way of launching that feels? Like it makes sense. And isn't just unnecessary complexity like you bought?
Becca 33:50
Yeah. Don't get me started on funnels, I feel like that would be a whole other episode. Like, I have a client right now who is gearing up to launch a program for her business. And she was boxing me like asking me all of these questions.
And I was like, listen, all you need to know is that the people at the top of the funnel might not even be aware of you. But they're like they've maybe seen a post, right? And then the people in the middle of the funnel, know who you are and what you do, and they're starting to recognize they might need you. And then maybe the, like, the next level has bought a one-off thing from you. And then the bottom has bought your full one month to month like retainer.
And she was like, Oh, why don't people just say it that way? I'm like, I don't know. But like, that's all a funnel is. And I'm vigorously gesturing with my hands right now because it shouldn't be so simple. But we talk about them in these ways with these levels of complexity and bump offers and this and that and it makes it feel like you can't do it. At least that's how I felt.
Yeah, or like you have to like low key trick people into wanting to work With you, like, you know, like, you have to have this page that pops up after your like quiz that's like, buy this workbook for $37. And then after they get that they get an email sequence that's like, buy this other thing that's like $250. And like, you have to, like, sort of, like, trick people into like, like taking one step down the staircase at a time until they're in your cellar, and they can get away and they're now paying me $5000 That's only real to me.
Becca
$500,000 Who wants to pay me $500,000? But no, we’re joking. But you're absolutely right. And I have definitely, especially when I didn't realize that that was the game. And I'm gonna call it a game because feels like you're designing a game, right? Yeah. So when I didn't realize that the first time they came across the funnel that had bump offers, and this and that, and another email, I guess, funnel as well. Chain, whatever, you know what I'm trying to say, you bought a thing, then more emails game, then you bought another thing? And then I was like, Wait, why am I buying all this stuff? Like, I got tricked, and they won the game, I didn't win.
Krista Walsh 36:17
Yeah, and that's a horrible feeling. It sucks. Like you do not want to feel tricked. And I feel like it gets worse, the more that you quote, unquote, succeed in this game that you're talking about the worse. When somebody wakes up to what's happened to them the worst, they're gonna feel like if you do, like, get them all the way down something where they're not really thinking about it.
They're just like, clicking yes to things. And all of a sudden, they spent like, hundreds of dollars with you. You're gonna be like, I succeeded, because I got them to spend this amount of money, but they're going to feel like, you know, you kind of scan them into it, I think. Yeah.
Becca 36:54
Well, and I also want to say, of course, there are complexities to everything, nuance to everything. So if you're a person listening to this, who has bump offers, bump offers are not inherently bad. Having a funnel is not inherently bad. Every business has a funnel from people who are not aware them to aware to buying, right, that inherently is a funnel, it is the intention behind the decisions that you make and how you're approaching that thing. And the people who you want to buy from you that is, it's the mindset piece of: is the intention truly helping, or is the intention making another sale? And that to me is what sets it apart.
Krista Walsh 37:38
Yeah, and I would like to add to that, that I think, the times that I have used, like, quote-unquote, like tricky or scammy things like making all my prices like $997, or whatever. Like just stuff that doesn't like there was no like, I wasn't sitting there intentionally thinking, I'm going to use this tactic to manipulate people like, I no point was that my intention, the problem was that I didn't have an intention. I was just like, This is what people are telling me to do, or this is what everybody is doing. Therefore, it must be the right way.
So yeah, I truly believe that most people that have these, especially smaller companies, you know, aren't doing it out of some, like malevolent impulse. They're doing it just because we're all super busy. And we're just trying to like, get our sales page launched. And you know, we're just trying to, like, do these things, in the easiest way possible. So sometimes our human intuition is not at the forefront and those moments,
Becca 38:41
that's a very good point because I have 100% operated on autopilot in my business, especially when it was a side hustle. And I had a full-time job. And I was just trying to get stuff out because I had an idea and I wanted to try it. I wanted to learn and see what would happen. And sometimes they probably did things that I had no negative intent behind, but they had no negative repercussions, purely because I was like, Oh, this is the thing I should be doing. And I want to learn how to do it. And I didn't really think about what that meant.
So then I'm just gonna say like in light of like, maybe a funnel or something along those lines like it isn't inherently a bad thing to do. But I wasn't asking myself if I was doing it in the right way. Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, I'm gonna rewind our conversation just a little bit, because one of the first things that you said was using nonconfident language. So I want to tell you a little story real quick. I am our recently launched my coaching offer. And one of the things, when I was launching it that I was really, really set on, is that I want my coaching to be a relationship of equals. So I use the term peer-to-peer coaching in my sales page, and I was like, this is incredible. Like, wouldn't it be amazing to have a conversation with a coach who doesn't view themselves as above you? Right, which I've had wonderful coaches who have not done that. But I've also had coaches who have done that. And I didn't like that experience.
So I was like, so stoked Game Changer love this approach excited. And I had someone look at me and say, Well, why would they buy anything from you? If you're not saying that, you know, more than them? Yeah.
So how do you approach non confident language from that lens, because what I decided was, eff it, I don't care, I'm going to use that language anyway. Because that's what's important to me. And those are the people I want to attract to, who want to have a relationship of equals of mutual respect and guided mastery and things along those lines. But that is a might not be the experience that everyone wants, and that's okay, then you're not the client for me.
But B it was it was very, very much challenged by people who were telling me you're doing something wrong, but I knew in my heart, I wasn't. Yeah. So I'd love to hear your input on how you kind of guide clients through because that is kind of a mindset shift that you have to make when you're starting to use language that doesn't say, let me tell you all the things that I know that are going to be helpful to you to know to like, yeah,
Krista Walsh 41:39
no, I think that when you do things like use, like hesitant language, or admit that you are not, you know, this like Goddess like authority, and this guy with all of the answers, like whatever, whether you're a coach, or a service provider, I actually think when you admit that kind of stuff, you're talking to a more sophisticated buyer, you're probably talking to somebody who has hired a coach before, who has, you know, hired a website designer before, and they've experienced the truth, which is, the person you hire doesn't have all of the answers, even if they claimed to. So in my opinion, you're probably going to attract people who are more established in business, who have the funds to hire you, and who are really, really serious about it.
Because I know like, personally, when I started in business, like the first coaching program, I joined, I was looking for somebody who promised me they had the answers, because I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing, I do not trust my intuition at all, I really need somebody to just like, tell me what to do.
And I want to go through somebody's framework. And I did that. And you know, when I'm looking around at coaching programs, now, I'm not looking for that anymore, you know, I can afford a higher price point. And I'm looking for somebody who is going to like, do more of like helping me step into my intuition. And I'm really shying away from people who are pretending that they have all the answers, because I know that's not true. And also, I know, that's not how I'm going to get to the next level. So I'm not sure if that was an answer, but just like an encouragement that it's okay. And I think it is like a strategy for sales that a lot of people will resonate with and respond to positively.
Becca 43:31
So I love that you said that on a personal note, because I feel so validated right now because that's exactly right. My audience for coaching is not new business owners. It's people who are two years into their business, who have worked with other coaches in the past realize that they're not necessarily needing the information, they're needing the implementation. And there's a shift when yo
u kind of recognize that and yourself, so Oh, I just I feel so good, right. That's the first thing you said was that that's that your audience isn't new business owners, and that's awesome. Okay, now, that was a personal question for all my listeners, but I love that that was the answer. Okay. I think it's time to like, put a bow on this conversation with my favorite question. And I feel like we've covered a few things that might have answered this question. So if you want to leave it at the conversation, that's fine, too. But what bothers you What would you like to see changed in this space for the better what do we need to address to move forward as a collective whole?
Krista Walsh 44:43
I think what bothers me and I think it's been a through line through this conversation is the resistance to encouraging people to trust their intuition when it comes to anything but in the context of like, what I They do when it comes to their own copywriting. You know, believing like that there are like secret words that you need to use or frameworks that you have to follow or now there is like this push from, you know, frameworks to not follow because they're no longer ethical for some reason, you know.
And like, it's sort of like, this list of things that I feel like if I were a business owner, who wasn't confident that I knew how to write coffee, I would just be like, frantically like, what is right, what is wrong? Where's the list of words? Like what? Like, what can I say? And what should I not absolutely say, because I don't want to make people feel bad either? But I also want to sell, and it would just feel really confusing. And I think at the end of the day, I want people to know that your intuition and your empathy, and your understanding of your clients and your audience, is your best ally.
So, you know, block out the noise for a second, maybe go and interview your clients or have someone do that for you and do that, that research, if you haven't done that ever. And then trust that, you know, you probably know what to say to people, and you don't have to do it in any special secret way that only copywriters have the key to.
Becca 46:14
So one of the things that you said earlier was like, my brain explosion moment of kind of the question of, are you actively checking in with yourself and your intuition when you're making choices in your business. And for the very beginning of my business, we already talked about this, I was not. And so that's the thing, that if, if you're a new business owner, or you're not actively doing this, at this point in your business, that's the takeaway I hope people get from this conversation.
Because in a lot of ways I feel like in just in our society, in general, we aren't really taught to check in with our intuition. So every once in a while I was I was gonna start this by saying, if you get that feeling, speak up, figure out what to change. But then I realized it's more than that you have to search for that feeling of intuition sometimes. And I don't think that we're really taught to and we're not really encouraged to.
So. So yeah, I agree 100%, with everything that you just said, and I would just say I think that it starts with actively checking in with yourself because that's how you practice this idea of how do I feel about this. Does this feel right to me? Does this feel wrong to me? And if it does, how can I do it in a way that feels right?
And the more you check in with yourself, you'll build that skill of kind of naturally doing it and be able to know at the moment so that you can respond accordingly. And then be able to recognize that you have those answers. And you don't need anybody else to tell you what framework to follow, or whatever it is. So yeah, that's my biggest takeaway.
Krista Walsh 48:00
Absolutely. 1,000% agree, start there. Frameworks and stuff can be helpful, but as tools not as the whole thing, you know, yeah. So yeah. Love that.
Becca 48:11
Awesome. Okay, Krista, will you tell us I know that you've got a little gift for the audience and tell everyone where they can find you online?
Krista Walsh 48:19
Yes, so I am a website copywriter. So all I do is website copywriting and strategy so big into UX and strategy and user journeys and stuff. So if you're working on your website, and you want to understand what elements to include on all of those core pages, I created a DIY website checklist. So it takes you through pages like Home Services, about contact with some things to include and why.
And people can find me at my website, Krista Walsh, copywriter.com, or on Instagram, by the same name at kristawalshcopywriter.com I also recently joined LinkedIn. So I'm there too, but that's just my name, Chris Walsh.
Becca 49:03
Perfect, and we will make sure everything is linked. So thank you so much for your time. This was a long episode, but there were so many gems. And like I said, I learned so much from you throughout this conversation. So I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and your experiences with us. And I can't wait for everybody to get to hear this. Yeah, thanks.
Just like I said, when we were wrapping up, my favorite part of this conversation was the realization that I had of how important it is to actively check in with your intuition. Because that is where this really starts if you're absorbing so much new information like we all are at the beginning of our business journeys, or even when you're pivoting and doing something new trying something new. You're in this mode of taking Get in and reacting. At least that was my experience.
So the realization that we need to actively check in with ourselves, check in with our intuition and realize, does this feel right? Does this feel wrong? And if it does feel wrong, why and how can I make this change? That's, that's gold that is gold right there just understanding that we have the answers that we need. We just have to take a moment to find them sometimes which can make all the difference.
Anyway, as always, I would love to hear your thoughts on this conversation and I'm sure Krista would do so her information is linked down below. Please DM me DM Krista, and let us know your thoughts.
All right, thank you so much for listening to this episode. As always, if you resonated with this conversation, if you would like to pass it along to a friend, I would be endlessly grateful. And if you want to subscribe or leave a review as well. That would make my day it would make my week if we're being honest. Until next week, this was Probably Bothered
Want to see what I’m all about?
Simple. It’s redefining what success means to you so that you can create the business (and life) of your dreams. Grab my free resource Success, Redefined below!